Help with my English work.

[izzi]

I'm about to start research for an article of my choice for my English language portfolio, I want to write discuss how the jump to mainstream has impacted on the band's music and how original fans feel about KOL's new-found success. I would love your opinions on the following things:
- Has your opinion on the band changed since OBTN was released and became so popular?
-Do you feel an active change was made to the music to make it more suitable for a commercial market?
- Do you feel the band as a whole (live performances, interviews, meeting them in person) has changed since they became more "mainstream"?
-Do you prefer the "old kings" or the "new kings" (based on the actual music the experience of seeing them live etc.)

I would really appreciate your feedback on this, feel free to expand with related issues or opinions. I may need to use quotes but I will ask specific people if i can use their post. Thankyou so much!

[beybe]

Hello. I'd be glad to answer your questions. Surprised no one has posted. These are great questions. You could also view opinions from past posts or from the Come Around Sundown thread in music section if your up for extensive browsing through this forum.
Sorry if my responses aren't too detailed in my opinions. I'm way too lazy to write.

1) My opinion of them as musicians. I think they genuinely never meant to be so popular, therefore never intended to change themselves for that purpose. OBTN has songs that are very good and aren't cheesy like SOF, so they still had the goal of making a quality album, not an album of cheesy sing-a-longs. That's why I still have the same opinion about them: A band who wants to get better with every album.

2) The only active change I could really see were their two singles in OBTN. The rest of the songs on that album were great, though not better than the ones on BOTT. People just give that whole album such a wrongful rep.

3) Definetly. But that's only because they've grown up. I don't expect Jared to still act like the goofy 18 year old of the ASH days at the age of 23. Same goes for the rest. But, yeah, becoming mainstream has made them more on guard on what they say and who they hang out. They have to act alot more professional than the regular indie band in order to be taken seriously (and not as the next Motley Crue or something).

4) I definelty prefer the old kings. Never seen them live, but have watched live performances on video. They were alot more animated and into the crowd back then, but only cuz there were small crowds and better interaction. And their music has become less rock n roll for me and more pop. But it really depends on how differently people interpret what rock n' roll is/sounds like (e.g. I think the Beatles were quality pop, but a majority of ppl think they was pure rock n' roll). Still think their lyrics and music are top caliber compared to the rest of mainstream right now.

Hope I could help a fellow KOL fan. Writing a paper on them seems like alot more fun then a paper on 18th century trading systems and what not. lol

[NikLovesLeb]

I PMed a few days ago.

I am always happy to hep people with their homework!

Funny, how on the last point, you and I are almost exactly the same. Same wording, same ideas.

[beybe]

^^^^^Even on people's interpretation of the Beatles??? lol Awesome. I always get crap from people when I try to distinguish what's real rock n roll and what's everything else. Especially when discussing the Beatles.

[NikLovesLeb]

Agree on the Beatles.

They were pop. Zeppelin were rock.

I guess i see bands with heavy background in the blues (particularly English bands) being more "rock", with their emphasis on guitars and compositions. The Beatles, in my mind, did not have the same background at all and were rather poor musicians actually.

KOL, i dont know what they are now. Though I wouldnt say they are pop.
Let's call them garage punk Christian country rock.

[beybe]

Punk? Really, Nik?
LOL Just kidding.

I can agree with the blues. Rock really is just a transition from the blues, but with more complex instrumentation, which in my opinion was emphasized best by Zeppelin's early albums. It's been toned down these past decades to a point where mainstream rock n roll today isn't at the same level as it was in the 70s (and I don't know why!!! ).

But to tell you the truth, I'm uncomfortable with labeling genres. Too many different aspects in making music to really put a specific genre to it. Like Rhianna's Rock Star song is considered pop, but it has Slash's guitar-playing on it. So it must be rock, right?

[izzi]

Nov 7, 2010 22:27:16 GMT beybe said:

Hello. I'd be glad to answer your questions. Surprised no one has posted. These are great questions. You could also view opinions from past posts or from the Come Around Sundown thread in music section if your up for extensive browsing through this forum.
Sorry if my responses aren't too detailed in my opinions. I'm way too lazy to write.

1) My opinion of them as musicians. I think they genuinely never meant to be so popular, therefore never intended to change themselves for that purpose. OBTN has songs that are very good and aren't cheesy like SOF, so they still had the goal of making a quality album, not an album of cheesy sing-a-longs. That's why I still have the same opinion about them: A band who wants to get better with every album.

2) The only active change I could really see were their two singles in OBTN. The rest of the songs on that album were great, though not better than the ones on BOTT. People just give that whole album such a wrongful rep.

3) Definetly. But that's only because they've grown up. I don't expect Jared to still act like the goofy 18 year old of the ASH days at the age of 23. Same goes for the rest. But, yeah, becoming mainstream has made them more on guard on what they say and who they hang out. They have to act alot more professional than the regular indie band in order to be taken seriously (and not as the next Motley Crue or something).

4) I definelty prefer the old kings. Never seen them live, but have watched live performances on video. They were alot more animated and into the crowd back then, but only cuz there were small crowds and better interaction. And their music has become less rock n roll for me and more pop. But it really depends on how differently people interpret what rock n' roll is/sounds like (e.g. I think the Beatles were quality pop, but a majority of ppl think they was pure rock n' roll). Still think their lyrics and music are top caliber compared to the rest of mainstream right now.

Hope I could help a fellow KOL fan. Writing a paper on them seems like alot more fun then a paper on 18th century trading systems and what not. lol

Thanks for your thoughts, interesting stuff will let you know what quotes I want to use. I also agree with the Beatles/pop thing. Plus i'm so pleased my teacher told us to do it on something we enjoy as this piece is 40% of my a/s grade! I would hate to have to write in-depth on something I have no interest in!

[Razz!]

I'd like to contribute, so here's my honest answer!

1. Strangely, my opinion of KOL changed with CAS, not OBTN. When I first heard OBTN, I was shocked at the sheer difference in the production, the instrumentation in some of the songs, and they way new fans clamoured all over them like they would to Hanson and Take That... not trying to provoke anything, just examples! However, with OBTN, seeing the band in interviews and live, I didn't have a problem with this new way of seeing them because it still felt like KOL to me. They were the same people playing what they liked, just developing, and the music moved both them and me, of which I can say the same for the previous three albums. It was CAS that changed the way I felt about KOL. I'm still coming to terms with it, and it sounds silly to most people because it's just music, but to me music is the biggest thing ever, and when a band I love does something that I don't like, it can be very cutting. Of course my opinion of CAS isn't fact, and I know a lot of people here enjoy it, but it's gonna take me a LONG time to even like it. When I heard CAS, I literally cried because it felt like all of the soul and passion had been sucked out of the music; it felt like the band were puppets to the producers and the commercial market, trying to make songs that would go down easy with the newest fans, not songs that serious music-lovers could enjoy. It upset me because first of all, KOL are good musicians, and a lot of the quirks and trademarks that I adore about their recordings has gone. The songs seem smoothed over, easy to digest, lifeless. Secondly, the change in producers since OBTN has pushed the production so far into the perfectionist mindset, it's unbelievable. Caleb himself has said that he likes hearing unintended background noises on records, and yet CAS is oversaturated to the point that I can't even listen to Mary because the effect on Caleb's voice is so unsuitable for that hoarse screech I used to love hearing him emit. I want to listen to a KOL album and know that it's the boys I've grown to love recording music for fans like me to treasure, not just sound shooting into the atmosphere from an unidentifiable sonic source. I apologise for the rant, but CAS just felt like a betrayal to me. It doesn't make it any less commercially pleasing, I'm sure, but I know that it near enough ruined my perception of KOL forever. I can never listen to any KOL song again now without feeling a pang of sadness.

2. I imagine that the motives of the KOL boys are a "both sides of the coin" thing. On one side, and what I believe to be the most predominant side, I imagine that they don't care if someone doesn't like their music. They make it for themselves and the fans that are loyal to them and accept them for who they are, not how catchy the chorus is. However, I'd think that on the opposite side of the coin, there is a small desire to be accepted by a wider and broader audience, firstly because most bands aspire to that, but also because KOL have always had problems being noticed and accepted by their own background. I'd think that KOL would have tried to make an active lunge towards commercialism solely for the latter goal, to become more celebrated by their own country, which is completely understandable. I think that due to possible record label and producer pressure, they continued further down that path than they initially planned. I think there definitely has been an active change to achieve more mainstream recognition, but only in the small way that most bands do. To be honest, I think it snowballed into what we see today unintentionally.

3. I kinda mentioned this in my first answer. I think they've grown as people, since they started this at a young age and progressed through to adulthood with the band. We've seen them grow up as the band as an entity grew up, and while this CAS era of the band does upset me, I have to say that watching them in interviews does settle me a little because they just seem like the boys that I love. Of course they've learnt things and matured, but as people, I couldn't be happier really. Ignoring the musical side of it, I really quite adore them, and I like hearing them speak about things, even silly things, because they always say or do something to let you know that it's still your good old boys.

4. In regards to which albums are my favourites, I have to say "old KOL", but I really did love OBTN and the era that surrounded it. I saw them live during that period and while the "Sex On Fire fans" were screaming away and there were looks of disdain from old fans, KOL themselves stayed rock steady and true to what they always have been as musicians. They seemed excited to perform, even though it was old hat by that point, they were never bias to either "old" or "new" fans, and they seemed to still be slightly shy and awkward like they used to, even though they probably had the "idol power" to lead mass Use Somebody singalongs that last 10 minutes if they'd wanted to. Caleb still throws up in a bucket at the side of the stage out of nervousness - can he still be worried that his own audience might not be supportive, even though they've sold god knows how many records and sold out huge venues, and just about tripled their fanbase? YES, he can, and that's why I still love KOL despite the crush of CAS. They're some of the greatest people I've ever encountered, and I know that one day, I'll understand CAS and the change it brought, even if I still don't ever really like it. I was distraught at first, but after seeing them as people and knowing their love is still there, I'm convinced that there's something to hold on for. I suppose in the end, their personalities proved more powerful than their music in my case. That's what saved the band in my eyes, and because of that, I'll probably keep hanging on forever, no matter what happens.

I apologise for the MASSIVE essay, but there's a lot of pent-up KOL frustration that I've needed to get out of my system!

xxx

[izzi]

corr blimey, thank you for the essay! Will definitely want to use some of that as I do with all other replies I've had! was slightly worried when I first started this thread as no-one seemed interested in sharing their thoughts. But hey! every person that has sent me their thoughts or put it here has had great views that I want to put into my piece. So pleased I get to write about this as i'm really enjoying doing the research for it and hearing from you lot. Essays are always welcome, thanks again! x

[beybe]

Nov 9, 2010 20:20:42 GMT Razz! said:

I'd like to contribute, so here's my honest answer!

1. Strangely, my opinion of KOL changed with CAS, not OBTN. When I first heard OBTN, I was shocked at the sheer difference in the production, the instrumentation in some of the songs, and they way new fans clamoured all over them like they would to Hanson and Take That... not trying to provoke anything, just examples! However, with OBTN, seeing the band in interviews and live, I didn't have a problem with this new way of seeing them because it still felt like KOL to me. They were the same people playing what they liked, just developing, and the music moved both them and me, of which I can say the same for the previous three albums. It was CAS that changed the way I felt about KOL. I'm still coming to terms with it, and it sounds silly to most people because it's just music, but to me music is the biggest thing ever, and when a band I love does something that I don't like, it can be very cutting. Of course my opinion of CAS isn't fact, and I know a lot of people here enjoy it, but it's gonna take me a LONG time to even like it. When I heard CAS, I literally cried because it felt like all of the soul and passion had been sucked out of the music; it felt like the band were puppets to the producers and the commercial market, trying to make songs that would go down easy with the newest fans, not songs that serious music-lovers could enjoy. It upset me because first of all, KOL are good musicians, and a lot of the quirks and trademarks that I adore about their recordings has gone. The songs seem smoothed over, easy to digest, lifeless. Secondly, the change in producers since OBTN has pushed the production so far into the perfectionist mindset, it's unbelievable. Caleb himself has said that he likes hearing unintended background noises on records, and yet CAS is oversaturated to the point that I can't even listen to Mary because the effect on Caleb's voice is so unsuitable for that hoarse screech I used to love hearing him emit. I want to listen to a KOL album and know that it's the boys I've grown to love recording music for fans like me to treasure, not just sound shooting into the atmosphere from an unidentifiable sonic source. I apologise for the rant, but CAS just felt like a betrayal to me. It doesn't make it any less commercially pleasing, I'm sure, but I know that it near enough ruined my perception of KOL forever. I can never listen to any KOL song again now without feeling a pang of sadness.

I would give you a 1000 karmas if I could! Feel the same way about CAS. Thought I would grow to like it, but I still think it's slow and pretty lazy of them. At least OBTN had some terrific gems like Crawl and Cold Dessert and Be Somebody. Matt's guitar playing on CAS should've at least been more expansive to give the album life. Ugh.
It's a filler album to promote their tour. They aren't trying to expand themselves musically at this period of their career right now.

[NikLovesLeb]

CAS is a weird "album".
But to me, it has some AMAZING songs on it.

I think that there is a problem when people begin to judge "albums" vs. songs.

Everyone can say, oh, "Sticky Fingers" or "Sgt. Pepper's ,,,,," but actually, at least to me, it's the songs that truly matter.

Even with KOL, i sometimes feel that "old" fans like to say, oh, YAYM and ASH are so good, but if you ask them what songs they like, they are like...ummmmm.

[beybe]

I agree with you, Nik. But I guess that's why I don't like CAS. No song has stood out as extraordinary to me (though I still have not heard Celebration, damn it). There are songs that are better than the others, but, as I described the whole album, they could've been more expansive, innovative, and even wild on some of them.

[NikLovesLeb]

Yeah, i dont disagree that there are some weak songs.
But innovation-wise, i guess I take something like "Molly's Chambers", which is pretty simple song with a "stolen" riff, and compare it to "Pony Up" and "Mi Amigo" and i do see expansion and innovation.
But then of course, i am not a musical person, so I only judge by what sounds good/interesting to my ear. I cant play, sing or am in any way qualified to make any musical judgement.

[beybe]

True about Molly's Chambers. But I give the first album's simplicity a pass since they were barely experienced players. However, everytime I listen to Arizona, I think "Free Willy rip-off".
Just got to give them kudos for still making good music and not succumbing to the Sex On Fire addicts.

[Razz!]

First off, thanks izzi, I'm glad what I ended up posting didn't just seem like meaningless teenie waffle. Use as much as you want.
Secondly, thanks beybe. I was so gutted when I felt so strongly and negatively about CAS, but things change, and maybe one day I'll realise what's secretly great about it that I'm missing in my fluster. And NikLovesLeb, I know what you're saying. CAS does have a few great songs on it, I can't deny that. Pickup Truck makes me shiver in the best way, and I like a couple of the others, but I can't help agreeing in part with that beybe said about their sound. However, having seen their CAS era interviews so far, I'm comforted by the way they still seem like our boys. I feel betrayed by their music, but not by THEM, and that's why I'm holding on. I know one day I'll feel comfortable with it.
I know what you mean about the "old fans" thing, but thankfully I consider myself quite a genuine fan and if you asked me what was so great about any KOL album song-wise, I can easily single out what I love about it and what particular songs move me. I guess it's different for everyone.

xxx